Please critique my 23' CC Rebuild plans

[take a potter]

Well this time last year I thought I would be rebuilding my 1975 23' CC. Unfortunately, family health issues kept it from happening. Now it's time.

Was hoping some of you would chime in on my plan. Since I live in a fiberglass supply wasteland and I happen to be driving to central Florida in about 10 days, I wanted to finalize some materials and pick them up while I am down there.

I only get to use the boat for about 3 weeks a year but when I get the opportunity I am on it for about 10 hours a day. When it is home, it is kept in a building that I built specifically for it. So it stays dry and out of the sun. All that said, I can't justify spending more money than necessary to keep it going for another 55 years.

I plan on using Epoxy for everything, I have some experience with epoxy but have never touched Vinyl Ester, which is the only other thing I have even considered. Keep in mind I am in western Virginia so it will get cold for periods this winter. As to core materials all the big items will be marine ply, I may use some foam board to keep down weight on some boxes and such. I am going to enclose the transom including a curved top and put my existing 25”, becoming 30”(with 5” extension), 2 stroke back on for now. Down the road I fully expect the 2 stroke to be replaced, but I just can't get rid of an engine that has been so good to me. My plan is to build a bracket, ala Strick, or Hermco. Dual full flotation with platform. It will also get a new sole but will keep the step up casting deck. New sole will be raised 1 1/2” and scuppers will be routed out the back. The finish will be paint, I have used Tom's (RIP) Signature finish before and will use it again or something very similar. It was a dream to work with and has held up great. Console will get refreshed and raised by 2”, I'm 6'6” and the bottom of the t-top rod holders hurt.

This hull is unmolested other than at some point, the fuel tank was replaced. An additional 30gal tank was put into the box that is immediately in front of the console and a weir was added to the splash well, to separate the in floor live well from the splash well. The boat at some point had twins on it, so there are patches/plugs in the transom.


So here is the “plan”.

De-rig; Remove console and t-top as well as engine and transom transducers.

Remove transom core and stern cap / boxes up to the hawse pipes along with sole forward to the front of the splash well enclosure.

Grind around the outside of the current motor cutout and layup 2 layers of 1708, CSM out, and then mount a waxed piece of melamine board against the outside and roll out. While still wet, layup 1700 in the cut out to build to original thickness. I am thinking 2 layers may do it. When I mount the melamine I have some pieces of angle iron ready to add on to the outside to remove a bow if it exists.
That should give me a flat transom outer skin. Hopefully while still wet layup a piece of 1708, CSM toward the stern, across the inside wrapping to the sides and bottom by 6”, having ground original glass for the new glass to lay on.

After saturating ply, using a epoxy cabosil butter laminate (2) ¾” pieces and one 1/2” piece of marine ply into the transom, . All set in peanut butter to eliminate voids.

Laminate 4 layers of 1700 as inside skin tabbing 4, 7, 10 and 13”

When do I cut the holes for the scuppers? I was thinking of doing a water test before painting and then figuring out the scuppers. I would love for them to be angled down a little. However cutting them in after the bracket is mounted would be a pain. And I think I would rather not have to demount the bracket. I know my current water line, so maybe I should just put them where I think they should go after the sole is in.
Drain plug will be drilled oversize and filled then redrilled for the garboard drain.

Remove sole and assuming dry stringers laminate 1 1/2” of ply to the tops. Wrapping with 1708, csm down. And topping with one layer 1700.

Add cleats to perimeter of sides for outside sole to sit on.

Fit 1/2” Ply sole. Scarf joints or use butt blocks? Add backing for console and leaning post bolt down Laminate underside using 10oz cloth after saturating
Laminate top with 2 layers of 1700. running up sides 3, 6 inches.

For raising the console 2” I need to either build up a perimeter on the sole or build up the bottom of the console flange, not sure what will be best? If I build a base on the sole I could laminate ply to get the 2” and then fasten to that and not worry about backing blocks. My t-top attaches to the console.

I will build a transom unit that will include storage and a center live well. It will not come to the floor and will taper back at the bottom to allow for toe room. Live well will bump out a little in the center and be oval. I am figuring 30 gal or so. For this I plan on building it out of foam or 1/2” ply and laminating it with 2 layers 10oz. I am leaning toward front doors for access vs top hatches. I plan on keeping the rear of the bait well at least 5” off the transom to allow access for bracket bolts and rigging. I intend to rig thru the transom not the bracket unless there is a reason to do otherwise.

I plan on creating a storage compartment behind the leaning post with a drop in box that can be removed to access the connections at the rear of the main fuel tank, Then have another bilge access hatch behind that(close to the transom) to get to the bilge pumps, high water alarm and thru hull and pump for the bait tank.

So that's the easy part right, next comes the bracket build.
Plan on building a melamine form and laying up starting with 1708 csm out, followed by all 1700. So bracket guys, forgetting about dimensions in this discussion what should my layup schedule be? And what about coring. I figure the clamping board can use the same ply coring schedule as the transom, 2 x 3/4” +1/2” but how about coring all the other bucket surfaces. I think Strick/Bigshrimpin do not use coring other than the clamp board. Is that what I should do or should I add some 1/2” ply. I plan on 3 stringers and 2 pie plates. As to the platform, it will need to be notched around my trim tab acttuators and I am thinking no coring but some sort of half round fiberglass ribs. Either way I am thinking a 3” platform. So what would the layup be? Again thinking a melamine mold with 3” lip laided up with 1708, csm toward mold / followed by 1700. Keep in mind for this discussion I am, really trying to come up with a materials list more than anything.

I am thinking of starting with 30 gal of epoxy 3:1 from US composites,.
1 full roll of 50” 1700 cloth 45 degree biax 100 yards
1 full roll of 50” 10 oz cloth 125 yards
4 gallons of cabosil
4 quarts of fairing filler to mix with epoxy
15 yards of 50” 1708 45 degree
100 yards of 4” 8.7 oz cloth tape
100 yards of 8” 8.7 oz cloth tape



Anything that else that I should be thinking about while I am on my materials buying spree.

Any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Michael

[Seacraftwalkaround]

Sounds good but is the transom bracket worth extra effort & $ when increasing engine to 30””

[take a potter]

For me, other than fixing rot issues, the reason I am doing this is to get more cockpit space. That was the driving force, fixing the rot is just a bonus.

[strick]

Boy that is a lot of info...skimmed thru it twice so forgive me if I don't cover much...for starters:

For building parts such as the bracket better off using poly or vinyl ester there is no need to make it out of epoxy...waste of money...for bonding to existing fiberglass on the hull then epoxy is better...I like vinyester as it is easier to work with and wets out what ever fiberglass you decide to use without worrying about binders not being compatible with the epoxy...on the idea of raising the deck on a 23 it is not really necessary especially if you are going to go with a flotation bracket..but it's your boat so do it how you want...on coring the bracket of course the transom of the bracket will be cored and the swim platform should have some sort of coring as well...Tim and I made several molds melamine seems to work best...sprayed with duratec and then the first two layers should be heavy matt... after that 1708 till you get the desired thickness...1/2" thick around the corners and 3/8" thick around the sides and bottom is kinda what we did. It's been a long time...dont forget to glass the swim platform to the tub as I've had to come back and glass the seam when I just bonded the two parts with potter putty...it would be a small hairline crack that looked unsightly. I think I've built 4 brackets total and they were all a learning experience..but they all worked well when finished...so thats all the experience I have on them....More later..

strick

[flyingfrizzle]

Originally Posted by strick

For building parts such as the bracket better off using poly or vinyl ester there is no need to make it out of epoxy...waste of money...for bonding to existing fiberglass on the hull then epoxy is better...I like vinyester as it is easier to work with and wets out what ever fiberglass you decide to use without worrying about binders not being compatible with the epoxy


...Tim and I made several molds melamine seems to work best...sprayed with duratec and then the first two layers should be heavy matt... after that 1708 till you get the desired thickness...1/2" thick around the corners and 3/8" thick around the sides and bottom is kinda what we did. It's been a long time...dont forget to glass the swim platform to the tub as I've had to come back and glass the seam when I just bonded the two parts with potter putty...it would be a small hairline crack that looked unsightly.

strick

I agree with the above^. He really knows his stuff so take his advice to heart. I Use vinyl-ester or polly on molded parts also. It dose work much better. Epoxy is king for bonding or secondary bonds to old glass. Molding parts is different.


The brackets Ive built I seamed the platform on the front bottom side vs the top rear of the ear if that makes since. It takes more finish work and sanding but luckily I haven't seen no cracks yet like the hermco or the 2 piece ones get. I used thicken resin with cabosil and fiber glass pellets where the swim platform bonds to the outboard mounting ear with several layers of glass on top of that to prevent the cracking. Knock on wood I haven't got any cracks on my bracket yet. I build mine a little different than they do. Instead of over lapping the outboard tab with the swim platform ear skin I glass the front of the mount ear separate and finish it out after bonding the two pieces together. I think the problems can be solved by grinding down the seems, feathering them back and then using glass to make the seem solid. Ive only built three outboard brackets before and one was aluminum and the other has never been in the water yet so I don't know much as some but do be careful on how you bond the pieces together and finish them if you do the 2 piece approach to prevent cracking at those points.


Also like mentioned, most raise the floor in the 20' hulls but the 23' really don't need it unless it is rear heavy with a standard brackets and heavy twins maybe.


I get the 6'6" thing. Im only 5'8" but my dad was 6'7". Growing up all the tables in the workshop were taller and everything had extra head clearance. When you raise the console since your mentioned doing it from the bottom possibly (think you mentioned that) I would add the height you need then turn the flange inwards instead of outwards. It just looks cleaner to me that way. You could seem a 2" piece in if you cut it but with the slant on the sides it would not fit up right. I would cut the factory flange off then add what you want at the same angles as the original console sides then mold a new flange on the extension you add.


Scupper holes height, if you raise the deck you should be able to keep them above the water easily. If you decide not to raised it you may want to be more carful. But you mention taking the bracket on and off but if you want to really do a custom bracket and keep it close to the water you will need to float the hull with weight in it to figure out that height before even building the bracket so you know the dims to build it by. I know when I did my bracket I made the swim platform lower than most so my kids and Australian Shepard's could get in the boat easily. A lot of them are too high. You will need to know the water line to adjust the height of the swim platform or at least know how it sits to get the angle of the swim platform right. Mine is not parallel with the hull bottom. It has a slight angle built into it so water will run off it. Mine sits up in the front a bit so the way the hull sits will effect those dims. I didn't float mine but had a good guess where the water line would be. I also made the flotation chamber as low as I could and wide as I could to get max bouncy at rest. Lots of figuring to build a custom bracket.


One last thing the lip on my bracket swim platforms are 2" instead of 3" as most are. With a good lay up they will not flex as I stand on mine all the time fishing. Shoot, I even hit the dock with the back corner of it going fairly fast and it held up well. It dose have core cell on the bottom but not a full piece all the way to the lips. it stops 2" from the edges. This was mainly to give room to bolt it on. My bottom outboard bolts fall right below the swim platform. The more lip the stronger though. Ive seen some with no lip at all but I would do a lip of strength.


Like said you got a lot of info there and sounds like you got the right idea but this is just my 2 cents on what I could remember after reading your post.

[take a potter]

Thanks guys, boy sure was hoping you all would chime in. Thanks for reading my dissertation.

I know very little about Vinyl ester, but was considering it for parts not going to be glassed to existing structure. Will need to learn more, so I will use it correctly. The raise the deck idea was to allow the large suppers 1-1/2" x 3" in the stern. Maybe I should make them a little thinner and add a 3rd one in the center. I come in Jupiter inlet occasionally and the number of bow sticks that happen there make me want to get rid of water fast.
I need to think more about how you do your platform construction FlyingFrizzle I don't quite have my head wrapped around it yet.

Any considerations on the vinyl ester if I am doing this at temps below 60*?

So as a general principle, how much Vinyl ester should I need to do the bracket, and how much for the sole? Sole will be a bottom layer of 10oz and 2 top layers of 1700 and would include the casting deck. I will attach the sole with epoxy, both tabbing and putty. How much epoxy should I count on for the transom?

[take a potter]

One other question, when a part is made with Vinyl ester do you fair with vinyl ester or epoxy based filler? Is there a time frame that would make a difference, Ie. after vinyl ester cures for month then do you have to use epoxy?

[take a potter]

Ok, trying to get on board with the vinyl ester suggestions for the bracket. When I use epoxy the CSM is eliminated except for the exterior faces. My understanding is that CSM with epoxy does little for strength and adds weight. If I go with vinyl ester do I need to put CSM between each layer in other words use 1708 vs 1700? And do I also need to put CSM between each layer of plywood? On the plus side seems like vinyl ester would be easier to use in the colder temperatures.

[strick]

Originally Posted by take a potter

One other question, when a part is made with Vinyl ester do you fair with vinyl ester or epoxy based filler? Is there a time frame that would make a difference, Ie. after vinyl ester cures for month then do you have to use epoxy?

You can fair it with whatever you want just remember what ever you prime with it must be compatible...for instance...fair the part with epoxy then you need to use epoxy primer like awlgrip primer....Duratek says they’re primer will bind with the most Epoxies....well I found one it won’t bind to...it’s probably better to just keep it simple...honestly I would recommend using poly based resin for the bracket and then use a poly based fairing compound and primer compatible with those...The rule of thumb is you can epoxy over anything but not vice versa.

Strick

[flyingfrizzle]

I used vinyl-ester on the brackets I did mainly as I had a 55 gallon drum. If I had to buy it by the 5 gallon pail I would price it out poly vs the VE. I have found VE for only 20% more than polyester resin which is worth the upgrade to me. Most of the time it is 40% more and epoxy twice that. VE works just like polyester its just way stronger, more water resistant, better elasticity and very similar to epoxy properties. VE uses MekP just like Poly, you work it the same and all. It works well with gel coat also. The way I look at it you can use epoxy on anything but once you have epoxy down you can only put epoxy on epoxy. I use interlux 2000e primer or prime con mainly over the VE but you can use probably what ever. If you put epoxy down make sure you put epoxy over it. There are a lot of good epoxy fairing compounds out there and I mainly only use epoxy compounds to fair. I don't fair like most though. I treat fairing compound like bondo on a car. Least amount possible. Like you mentioned about the csm outer layers, I try to fair into the csm and used fairing compound to spot fill. I always try to avoid skimming out an entire area. Im not saying you cant do that successfully, I just try not to. Also you can do 1700 on 1700 with VE but most people recommend using 1708 or csm between layers. I use a lot of 1708 but when doing vacuum bagging light parts with low resin to cloth ratio I use 1700. Far as the scuppers, your inlet- I would make them big as you can. Never hurts to have more than less. Just make sure they are above the water line. The 23 hull done correctly dose not need a raised deck but many do probably mainly they have heard that about the 20' hulls and it has carried over. Raising the deck only hurts loosing free board so if your not worried about free board than it wont hurt. It is a give and take there. Far as the bracket deal, Big Shrimping and Strick have done more than me so you may be better off directing that at them but I like to size mine custom to maximize flotation, tub low as possible, tub wide as possible, swim platform low as possible to the water and set back short as possible with out motors hitting transom. Also getting the outboard height right is a challenge to figure out and how tall to make the mounting ear on the bracket. Most brackets work but don't maximize efficiency and outboard needs to go higher until it runs out of adjustment. Far as how much resin or cloth to build one. A bunch. I would have 15-20 gallons on hand just to do the bracket. Buy the cloth by the roll cheep off ebay and such. Make sure it is good cloth as all 1708s are not all equal. Far as temps under 60 degs. The VE shines. I don't use epoxy when it is cold. With VE or poly you can just flash it harder with the Mekp. Epoxy you need a winter mix or part "B". I like VE as I can flash it hard and sand on it 30 mins latter. Don't flash it too hard with the MekP though or it can make the resin lay up brittle. As much work as you will be doing it would be cheaper to buy a drum but if you get it by the 5 gallon pail you can re-order as the shelf life of VE is listed as 6 months. Ive used it 2 years old and it just needed a little more Mekp. Ive used Epoxy 8-10 years old and it hardened fine. Just took 3-5 days to do so. I wouldn't recommend using it that old but Im cheap sometimes and long as you do a test piece first you know what your getting into. Start a build thread and others will chime in as you move along with it.