pilot house ?

[KenB]

west marine ? what does west marine have to do with "west system epoxy" ? are you under the assumption,west marine,IS west systems epoxy ? if that's the case,you need to look a little further into that...
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/

If you walk into any west marine store, you will generally see a large wire merchandising fixture dedicated to west systems epoxy. These things don't grow on trees, and the money it costs to put them into stores comes from somewhere. Generally, my pocket.

Compare that set up to this website: http://www.epoxyproducts.com/
- I dare you to find pricing info on there, let alone the products you actually want.
- That said, I would much prefer to navigate a home built website and get a super high quality epoxy product for $45, then waxed west systems stuff for $80.

Didn't mean to suggest that west marine has anything to do with west systems, beyond the fact that the west systems fixture is usually found in west marine stores. Never mind that west marine loves to mark up products because they are "marine grade."

plywood most definatley needs to be kept dry-allow a plywood core to get wet-end result is dry rotting and delamination-painting the wood-tell me,what does that do ? keeps water off the wood,right ? plywood,it usually rots and wicks water via the end grain,the reason the end grain needs to be sealed-and sealed properly,with an epoxy based product...fresh water,as in rain water,is the worst...

"roughing up" wood before glassing does nothing to increase the absorbtion rate of a polyester based resin,polyester resin used on a wood surface,it provides a surface bond-the reason the fiberglass skin can easily be removed from the wooden core-when recoring hatches,decks,transoms,etc-try the same thing with an expoy resin as the lamination mix-the results will be much different..."roughing up" a surface is needed,it gives the products something to "bite" to...ever try painting a slick smooth surface ? polyester based resins will cure much quicker,than epoxy based products-which usually require a full 8hrs cure time-time to "soak" into a pourous surface,such as wood.

I agree with you that balsa is bad. But I disagree with you about why. What I was told was that that integrity of fiberglass construction comes not from the inherent strength of the core, but from the compressibility of the core... when you jump on a lower unit and the transom flexes, that is caused by the two outer fiberglass skins compressing, not from the core material flexing. Same with floor and hatch covers. Wet delaminated plywood compresses more then new ply, but much much less than wet balsa. I have not seen an epoxy-impregnated piece of ply take on water. Ever.

With regard to the poly on wood, that's a different point, but same idea. Roughing up allows for a better mechanical bond. Molecular water does go through straight poly, but that's why you prime or bilge coat. And make sure any hole you drill get sealed up properly. Here are some epoxy on ply project that you claim will sink within a year because they didn't use the fancy core stuff:
http://www.fishyfish.com/boards/index.php?topic=259.0
http://www.fishyfish.com/boards/index.php?topic=956.45

(I'm joking... I know you don't think they will sink. For a while at least!)

And I think you are wrong about the cure times effecting wicking... epoxy is simply based on different solvents that wick better into wood. If you have ever used CPES or GitRot, those two products shift the solvents way down the spectrum to the point where they are as thin as gin or rum. In other words, even if poly and epoxy cured at the exact same rate, epoxy wets out much much better into wood. THAT's on the epoxy products site!

"your stuff",i use it,i do not manufacture it...price ? well,one transom core-a high density foam composite-for a 29 sea swirl striper-michigan composites mfg'd the core,it cost $130,plus shipping-i ordered the core,cut to fit...$130 for a transom core,not bad...that was a new 290 with the alaska package ,twin 250 yamaha's,the boat ran down a dredge pipe,at a very high rate of speed-fast enough to have the stbd engine shear the tilt piston,allowing the engine to fly upwards,and crush the cowling...the transom core was broken through-the drain tubes in the transom were popped out-clearly one hell of a hit,the engines stayed on the boat...i had one job-transom core,and stringers,on a boat with a 9'4" beam,the lumber bill-2 sheets of 5'x10' 3/4" and a single sheet of 1/2" 5'x10,cost almost $600-all marine grade...standard sheets are 4'x8'...i don't think lowes sells marine grade ply...
i'm not saying there's anything wrong with wood,i've used alot of wood,no problems.i'm just surprised to see no one using composites...

Lowes does not sell "marine" grade ply, but the arauco is void free (for the most part) and most A/C ply is good enough for decades of use in saltwater skiffs. Apparently on seacrafts it's important to vent the bilge to increase the longevity, someone should start a thread on that topic. Maybe do a poll or something.

Completely agree with you that the new stuff, in theory, seems way better. Sorry to suggest that you were pushing for it (even though I still think you are!).

I think part of the answer is that wood works, and it's not clear to me at least, that the composites are THAT much better. Better yes. A jones brother is better than parker. But how much better in dollars? In terms of the time it takes to either drive to some place, or risk buying something unknown that is expensive, and that a bunch of sales guys at various boat shows seem to keep hawking very aggressively.

I called it "your stuff" because the guy who posted earlier on this page used ply, and you suggested that he use something else. Ok fine, technically, you asked why he didn't use this other stuff. I wrote a reply as to why I am still using ply, and you sort of got defensive.

Which reminds me... the doghouses/pilot houses look awesome. Very burly, and just enough curves to give em some class. Nat's is nice, I think, because the curves keep it from looking like a giant box. Can't wait to see what shrimp has been up to.

[KenB]

Pelican,

I do have a legit question for ya... If I do my transom with ply and laminate/seal with epoxy, but then stick it in the boat with poly and cabosil... I will still get a chemical bond, right? Between epoxied ply and wet/new poly.

I want to use poly in the boat because I think the 1708 and matt will wet out much better with the poly (which I guess dissolves the stings holding the matt together??? that epoxy does not do?). But I want to seal my ply with epoxy.

Ok thanks!

[pelican]

i'm confused

balsa ? where did that come from ? listen,i don't purchase products from places you do-i use a supply house-i'm in the biz...

i'm not really sure where you jumped to the conclusion about wood and epoxy-perhaps you missed the part where i typed,"i've used wood,with no problems" ? never claimed it would sink,nor did i imply it either...

i'm done with this...

[thehermit]

Pelican,

I do have a legit question for ya... If I do my transom with ply and laminate/seal with epoxy, but then stick it in the boat with poly and cabosil... I will still get a chemical bond, right? Between epoxied ply and wet/new poly.

I want to use poly in the boat because I think the 1708 and matt will wet out much better with the poly (which I guess dissolves the stings holding the matt together??? that epoxy does not do?). But I want to seal my ply with epoxy.

Ok thanks!

Chemical bond....I wouldnt think so Ken. Poly over epoxy is a bad idea They used to sell epoxy matt at US Composites. It didnt have the binder in it.

[KenB]

Thanks Hermit. Makes sense. I know poly can't go on cured epoxy, but I was hoping it might work on uncured (or 1 week cured) epoxy, as LPU paint seems to work well over barrier coat.

[Bigshrimpin]

Hey Ken - I used Arauco in my transom on my 23 and in the bracket I built for my dad. Seem plenty strong and it's a nice void free product. I used Iso polyester for the transom too. I'll let you know in 30 years how it holds up.

Pelican - Where did you get composite transom core for $130 . . . can you hook a brother up? I paid $250+ for a 4x8 3/4" sheet of penske last year . . . ouch.

[KenB]

Hey Shrimp!

Lookin' good. Where did you get your poly from? Local pick up? I am cheap enough that I want to skip the shipping fees.

[Bigshrimpin]

unfortnately I don't have a local source . . . I hear you can get resin somewhere in chatham/Harwich, but everything I bought was from Composites One in Bristol $120/pail or Jamestown Distributors. I still have a bunch of 1708 from Ros boats, but that is no longer available since Roger passed away last year. If there were a bunch of people interested . . . buying a 55 gallon drum of resin and dividing it would save a bit.

[KenB]

Nat was talking up buying a drum, sounds like a plan.

[TunaMeltdown]

I think I have found someone to get resin through and my fiberglass but I am still not sure where and what to use for my core? I am now leaning away from plywood because of weight issues and more towards composite but it's so damn expensive. Bottom line is I got to build it and have it done within the next two months and preferably sooner. Anyone got recomendations on what to use and where to buy? If anyone has some sheets their looking to get rid of I will go that route aswell.