E10 vs Recreational(no alcohol) fuel

[cdavisdb]

i've been a confirmed Recreational fuel user for years, hate the very idea of Ethanol, but Recreational fuel, as currently available, looks like a poor option.

After experiencing what sure looked like phase separated water/alcohol corrosion damage in both my boat engines at the same time, I've done a bit of research. Turns out the "non alcohol" gas I buy at the filing station is VERY often contaminated with ethanol, and not necessarily a small amount. This left me extremely vulnerable to phase separation, much more so that when using E10. 10 micron Racors will stop water and phase separated alcohol water mixes unless too much gets in the filter, then it passes right through and may leave little or no evidence of its passage(until the engine quits). Also discovered that switching back and forth from E10 to recreational fuel is much more likely to create phase separation than sticking with one or the other.

I'm stuck with recreational fuel because I buy so much fuel in the Bahamas, but if I was staying in the US, I'd switch to E10 and take the necessary precautions. Hardly a good option,but better than anything else available. I plan to develop a separate fuel source for my kicker(done), check my Racors several times each trip, refuel after every trip, change filters at least once a year, and look for a good way to test for ethanol contamination in the fuel I buy. Any suggestions on a source?

Can I shoot the ass who came up with the idea of ethanol??

My thanks to Bushwacker and the E-tec forum for helping me develop the above information.

[DonV]

"Can I shoot the ass who came up with the idea of ethanol??"

Please do, however it will take a lot of ammo to get all of them!!!!

[pelican]

every time I read these rants,i laugh ! and I mean EVERY time !

find the source of the water entering your tank - that WILL solve the phase separation problem

water entering the tank,this causes phase seperation

[FLexpat]

I have often wondered why I have not seen a desiccant tube in the vent line - something like a drierite or molecular sieve filled tube - we use them a lot for air drying in other applications and it seems like it would be an easy and passive solution for water coming in with air through the vent line. Any answers?

[pelican]

desiccant bag would cause a restriction,in the vent line...

[Bushwacker]

Originally Posted by cdavisdb

. . .My thanks to Bushwacker and the E-tec forum for helping me develop the above information.

Conner sent me a note a couple days ago about a temporary problem he'd had with both his main and kicker engine. Here's the reply I sent him along with the relevant links to the E-TEC Forum, which is an excellent forum BTW, much like CSC, with support from a number of very knowledgeable BRP techs:

Here is some background info on some of the characters in the discussions in attached links to give you a feel for their credibility: LourPitcher is a retired NASA engineer and electronics expert in Texas that runs a 75 mph bass boat and comes from a family in the oil/gas business; Steelhead is a private pilot in Alaska and may be a petroleum engineer. Seahorse is a very savvy BRP tech rep. Evinrude/Joe is the owner of the website, dealer Barnacle Bill in NJ. Huey is a dealer/tech in Australia that's been selling all brands of outboards for 40+ years, and seems to be very knowledgeable. Olypopper is another very experienced dealer/technician in Alaska. jimh is an electrical engineer in Michigan that tends to over-analyze everything, but occasionally comes up with some good info.

1. This thread was started by a guy with a 250 on a bass boat that blew a hole in a piston, evidently due to detonation, either from bad low octane phase separated fuel or lean combustion/restricted fuel flow. The relevant discussion begins with post #40 on P3. Very interesting info about a dealer finding small amounts of ethanol in gas that was supposed to be ethanol free! I have an ethanol tester and I guess I should start checking the Rec 90 gas I've been buying!
2.This thread was started by a guy that somehow got a lot of water in his fuel, asking what to do about it.
3.Another thread with a very good discussion of ethanol related problems; see post #9 for a discussion of problems/myths/truths of E-10 gas by petroleum engineers; see post #21 for comparison of water and ethanol molecules sizes in microns vs. Racor filter capability.
4.Good discussion on mixing E-10 and Rec 90 gas.

I think Pelican is right - the amount of water that gets into a tank via the vent/moisture condensation is miniscule and I think that was proven by some tests/calculations run by jimh. Will have to see if I can find that post. Water in the fuel most likely comes from the dealers tank, or a leaky seal on the filler cap, a vent line without a loop in it to prevent sea water from entering in rough seas, leaks around the sending unit, or corrosion in the tank! During the ~700 mile S. Fl. circumnavigation trip I made in 2010, I used 158.5 gallons and refueled 9 times with Rec 90 gas at marinas. Since I have the Racor with the plastic bowl and drain fitting, I drain a bit of fuel to check for water every day on such a trip before refueling. I found water after 4 of the 9 refuelings; the places is suspect had water in the gas were in Clewiston, St. James City, Gasparilla Marina, Sanibel, and Chokoloskee. Those places are close enough together, that I wonder if maybe they all got watered down Rec 90 fuel from the same distributor?! I've removed my tank a couple of times and it has zero corrosion on it (not foamed in!), the sending unit is well sealed with Permatex No. 2B gasket sealer, I had replaced the filler cap O-ring before the trip and the vent fitting had a special inverted U in it to prevent water entry, so I'm sure water was in the fuel when I bought it. I found NO water in the fuel after Flamingo or any subsequent fuel stop on the east coast of Fl.

[gofastsandman]

Originally Posted by Bushwacker

Conner sent me a note a couple days ago about a temporary problem he'd had with both his main and kicker engine. Here's the reply I sent him along with the relevant links to the E-TEC Forum, which is an excellent forum BTW, much like CSC, with support from a number of very knowledgeable BRP techs:

Here is some background info on some of the characters in the discussions in attached links to give you a feel for their credibility: LourPitcher is a retired NASA engineer and electronics expert in Texas that runs a 75 mph bass boat and comes from a family in the oil/gas business; Steelhead is a private pilot in Alaska and may be a petroleum engineer. Seahorse is a very savvy BRP tech rep. Evinrude/Joe is the owner of the website, dealer Barnacle Bill in NJ. Huey is a dealer/tech in Australia that's been selling all brands of outboards for 40+ years, and seems to be very knowledgeable. Olypopper is another very experienced dealer/technician in Alaska. jimh is an electrical engineer in Michigan that tends to over-analyze everything, but occasionally comes up with some good info.

1. This thread was started by a guy with a 250 on a bass boat that blew a hole in a piston, evidently due to detonation, either from bad low octane phase separated fuel or lean combustion/restricted fuel flow. The relevant discussion begins with post #40 on P3. Very interesting info about a dealer finding small amounts of ethanol in gas that was supposed to be ethanol free! I have an ethanol tester and I guess I should start checking the Rec 90 gas I've been buying!
2.This thread was started by a guy that somehow got a lot of water in his fuel, asking what to do about it.
3.Another thread with a very good discussion of ethanol related problems; see post #9 for a discussion of problems/myths/truths of E-10 gas by petroleum engineers; see post #21 for comparison of water and ethanol molecules sizes in microns vs. Racor filter capability.
4.Good discussion on mixing E-10 and Rec 90 gas.

I think Pelican is right - the amount of water that gets into a tank via the vent/moisture condensation is miniscule and I think that was proven by some tests/calculations run by jimh. Will have to see if I can find that post. Water in the fuel most likely comes from the dealers tank, or a leaky seal on the filler cap, a vent line without a loop in it to prevent sea water from entering in rough seas, leaks around the sending unit, or corrosion in the tank! During the ~700 mile S. Fl. circumnavigation trip I made in 2010, I used 158.5 gallons and refueled 9 times with Rec 90 gas at marinas. Since I have the Racor with the plastic bowl and drain fitting, I drain a bit of fuel to check for water every day on such a trip before refueling. I found water after 4 of the 9 refuelings; the places is suspect had water in the gas were in Clewiston, St. James City, Gasparilla Marina, Sanibel, and Chokoloskee. Those places are close enough together, that I wonder if maybe they all got watered down Rec 90 fuel from the same distributor?! I've removed my tank a couple of times and it has zero corrosion on it (not foamed in!), the sending unit is well sealed with Permatex No. 2B gasket sealer, I had replaced the filler cap O-ring before the trip and the vent fitting had a special inverted U in it to prevent water entry, so I'm sure water was in the fuel when I bought it. I found NO water in the fuel after Flamingo or any subsequent fuel stop on the east coast of Fl.

The real problem is the margin on the sale of gas.

E 10 caused me to change three filters within 60 hours when I bought my 20.
A strong solvent. Sludge factor 5.
Great clamshell for the vent.

Why is he always smarter than I am?

Did he plan on keeping his boat for 50 years?
He has a 340 mill in that old bathtub glass Cuda...

[NoBones]

Originally Posted by gofastsandman

Why is he always smarter than I am?

Quite simple..

He is a rocket scientist (literally)
You, a carpet bagger...

Me just try to keep up...

[DonV]

Originally Posted by NoBones

Quite simple..

He is a rocket scientist (literally)
You, a carpet bagger...

Me just try to keep up...

Ken, did you mean "slacker carpet bagger"?

Me, I gave up trying to keep up.....

[cdavisdb]

More good info, Bushwacker, thanks. Since I never see water in my Racors except when I'm in the Bahamas, strongly suspect my rec90 supplier is selling contaminated fuel. If not, I'd eventually get some from the bowl, either from the fuel or elsewhere. That was normal before E10 came along. Maybe there are some good suppliers locally. I need a test kit and test ethanol content in all the various fuel sources around here.

Question: how do you know that the fuel you bought that showed no water in your filter was pure Rec90 and not contaminated with enough E10 to absorb any water?

I'll check the vent hose arrangement and fuel cap Oring. What is that "special inverted U fitting on the vent hose?